> You think I'm wrong ? Flame Away !

I do, and I will. :-) Flaming the powers that be is most likely a
low percentage strategy in the end, regardless of anything else.
I do, however, believe there are reasons to take notice of what
several land managers have said about geocaching (and by association,
letterboxing), as it has been banned now in several jurisdictions.
I had composed my thoughts in another message, which I will post
following ...

Quoting Eric Mings:
> I find myself wondering why there was no reference to orienteering.

Orienteering clubs always get written permission from the landowner
or manager before conducting meets. Orienteering organizations hold
insurance policies to protect the landowner. Orienteering clubs know
they are not conducting their activities in an environmentally sensitive
area because they have asked the park first. (We had one case where
the park said we could not use a particular field. Did not look
environmentally sensitive, but the park, not us as orienteers,
geocachers, or letterboxers, is the only one who knows for sure).

Those who do not understand sport orienteering and how it is organized,
but wish to, e-mail me off-list :-)

> Responsible recreating in public and private lands is an individual
> responsibility whether you are hiking, mountain biking, orienteering,
> hunting, fishing, letterboxing, geocaching, stonestashing, or
> just out for a walk.

Again, all of the activities above, except "letterboxing, geocaching,
stonestashing", require some sort of permitting, licensing, or following
local signage or rules. (Why should I need a license to go fishing,
I could reasonably ask (and I reasonably do ask this, without being
facetious). But that is the way it is, at least where I live. When
I go fishing, I bring my license). In some places you need a license
to gather mushrooms.

This debate has come up many times on the various geocaching fora.
Not to disparage anyone here, but I imagine the debate will run along
the same lines as it did there (q.v. the [gpsstash] list archives for
further reading); i.e. we're not littering, we're environmentally
reasonable people, we're bringing in visitors so this helps the park,
are we really worse than hunters?, etc.

The bottom line comes in two points. First, the land manager will
decide what is and what is not littering, as will the general
public (as once you place a geocache/letterbox, it is the
world-at-large's to do with it as they please). Convince the
general public that you are not littering.

Secondly, someone on the geocaching list brought up the example of
some form of aviation (I believe hang gliding but I cannot remember
exactly). They said their history was the same, people basically
didn't want them to do it, for the usual various and sundry reasons
which all boil down to the same core as they do here. Bottom line
is that they had to form an organization to "legitimize" themselves
and do the necessary PR with the various powers that be, to demonstrate
and educate how what they were doing was acceptable. Most outdoor
activities has had to do this in one form or another, or at least find
a way to work with the powers that be up front, I (in the minority
perhaps) believe geocaching/letterboxing will have to (and indeed
should) follow suit someday.

Cheers

Randy,

Always up for a good debate ;-) My point about orienteering is that
regardless of whether permission is given, you have a bunch of people
trampling the fastest path they can find to get to a checkpoint (or
whatever it is called in the sport). It really is irrelevant to my
points except that I thought it was strange that he only mentioned it
in a positive light in the context of all the supposed environmental
damage that could be wrought by letterboxers and geocachers.

>Again, all of the activities above, except "letterboxing, geocaching,
>stonestashing", require some sort of permitting, licensing, or following
>local signage or rules. (Why should I need a license to go fishing,
>I could reasonably ask (and I reasonably do ask this, without being
>facetious). But that is the way it is, at least where I live. When
>I go fishing, I bring my license). In some places you need a license
>to gather mushrooms.

Where I live you certainly don't need any permitting or licensing for
hiking or mountain biking unless you are camping in some areas that
require a permit for scheduling purposes. Down here licenses for
hunting (which I don't do) and fishing (which I do every chance I
get) are a source of revenue to help maintain the resources
themselves. One of the few taxes I have no dislike of paying. To me
letterboxing/geocaching/stonestashing is no different than hiking
apart from the issue of leaving something behind which I addressed
previously.

I do think your point about land managers ultimately deciding which
activities they will allow is the way it is, like it or not. If
letterboxing is banned and you leave one on a piece of government
property you may be prosecuted if they can figure out who you are.
This discussion occurred a while ago regarding the National Park
Service and their statements about geocaching. I think they will be
hard pressed to prosecute someone for leaving a small stone in the
woods as I am proposing for StoneStashing, but who knows what can
happen. Could an organization legitimize any of these hobbies and
gain acceptance from various authorities? I don't know. I am
concerned that any man made containers with objects inside will
always be viewed as trash by authorities. Will images carved on a
small stone be likewise viewed as trash? I hope, not but who knows.
It may come down to the only variant they can't govern being
"PictureHunting" or something similar where only a photograph is
taken at the site of the find. I think something similar using GPS is
considered a virtual geocache. And no.... I don't have the time or
inclination to try to get involved with developing that conceivable
variant :-)
--
Regards,

Eric Mings

Letterboxing International: http://www.letterboxing.com
StoneStashing: http://www.stonestashing.com

As I was reading these posts I came to the same conclusion: like it or
not, the only way to legitimize this sport is to organize. I think that
we will also have to enter into some sort of dialog with land use
officials. We can discuss the issues brought up by various park service
officials among ourselves forever and we will never change official
attitudes or policies. I am sure that the park service, undermanned as
they are, will enforce the rules and someone will get cited for
letterboxing. The only alternative to a constructive dialog and
legitimization, as I see it is to go underground and off the web

-Todd

> Bottom line
> is that they had to form an organization to "legitimize" themselves
> and do the necessary PR with the various powers that be, to demonstrate
> and educate how what they were doing was acceptable. Most outdoor
> activities has had to do this in one form or another, or at least find
> a way to work with the powers that be up front, I (in the minority
> perhaps) believe geocaching/letterboxing will have to (and indeed
> should) follow suit someday.
>

All's I can say is that I hope this discussino doesnt
go away before I have a chance to formulate my
response which is a-coming.


Chip


=====
www.geocities.com/kancamangusdabull/HOME.html

You pick the place, I'll choose the time,
And I'll climb, that hill in my own way"

R. Waters

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> Always up for a good debate ;-) My point about orienteering is that
> regardless of whether permission is given,

My point was that permission was given. I don't think such a
"debate" holds promise, as we are talking different points. I
believe my point trumps yours, FWIW ;-) Arguing what activies
have impact, and which do not, is not the issue, IMO (BTW, many
studies have found that sport orienteering does not have impact,
FWIW).

> Where I live you certainly don't need any permitting or licensing for
> hiking or mountain biking

Reread my post. I also said "signage and local rules". I've
had to disregard both to find many of the letterboxes that I
have found. The most common is "no off-trail travel". I've
heard of geocachers being warned by rangers and threatened with
citation about this. I know first hand of someone who has the
attitude (quoting from memory) "no ranger is going to intimidate
me", but I think this is a poor, and potentially pathological,
attitude in the long run.

Cheers

I don't think you have to worry about that happening!

--- Chip Goss wrote:
> All's I can say is that I hope this discussino
> doesnt
> go away before I have a chance to formulate my
> response which is a-coming.
>
>
> Chip
>
>
> =====
> www.geocities.com/kancamangusdabull/HOME.html
>
> You pick the place, I'll choose the time,
> And I'll climb, that hill in my own way"
>
> R. Waters
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute
> with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
>


__________________________________________________
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